Pier flip

[Armando]

Ciao gpaolo,

please set the right PierSide and then send a GoTo command; I think your telescope will move on Dec in the wrong direction. If so you need to change your Dec rotation mode.
Then also PierFlip should work as expected by keeping the right PierSide too... (I hope  )

Cieli Sereni!
Armando

[Armando]

In a few words:

In this position, to avoid to have the "pier flip" indicator active, I have to tell the ASCOM driver that the telescope is EAST looking east, which is quite false:

No!  You should tell the ASCOM driver that the telescope is W looking E AND change your Dec rotation mode...
After the Dec motor orientation change disconnect the LFEP by ASCOM and powercycle it.

CS
Armando

[gpaolo]

No, no way...

Now the telescope is on the west looking east, as in the previous image, the DEC is moving correctly (with normal direction) and the pier flip is active on the wrong side:



You can see in stellarium where the telescope is looking. The position is as before.
Goto movement are correctly executed, so mount configuration should be correct.
In LFEP handbox the position of the side of pier should be correct (the telescope is on the west side of the pier) and it correctly indicates that the telescope is looking east, BUT the flip button is not active.
In Maxim you can see that the mount is telling the program that the telescope has been flipped, while it is not possible in this position.

[gpaolo]

Maybe I'm making some confusion because I'm coming from the FS2 approach -which was honestly a lot easier in this case...-, but I think that the pier flip indication should be a lot more straightforward: if the telescope is on west side, I can perform the flip (thus the pier flip status is inactive), and if the telescope is on east side, the mount has executed the pier flip.
Motor direction, looking east or west, any other thing should not have any importance: it is an action depending on telescope position and RA rotation direction. In my case, it is like if I were in southern hemisphere, with the RA axis inverted  (before someone asks, yes, I've checked latitude and longitude, they are ok  )

[Armando]

Hi gpaolo,

what I know is that SideOfPier should report pointing state, not the physical pier side (as indicated in the attachment...).
So the user should set Dec motor rotation so that with SideOfPier right (I mean ASCOM compliant) GoTo works as expected.

But now I'm a little confused since changing Dec motor rotation obliges to change also current SideOfPier (to make GoTo working). And so playing with Dec rotation should change also the flip status indicated by MaxIm...   

Could you try to set Side of Pier ASCOM Inverted in MaxIm (Observatory Setup - Telescope options)? Maybe CCDAP relies upon MaxIm flip status...
 
CS
Armando

[the_lizardking]

To be honest I also had problems with the flip option. I made a fiew tests and gave up as I was crashing against the pier a fiew times,... I would say we should again have an eye on it to have a clear guide how to use it,... I dont understand it anymore.

I can confirm what Paolo says, the scope is pointing more or less right but flip button is not active while the scopes weights are hanging in air,...

[gpaolo]

Hi Armando,

The behavior that I'm observing is not compliant with figure 4, so it may be a driver issue.
I will make more tests today if I can, but I don't think it is a problem of Maxim, since during the use of CCDAP the telescope remains disconnected in Maxim.
I will also check (if I'm able to do it...) if the driver is reporting the physical side of the pier, like in figure 5.

To be honest I also had problems with the flip option. I made a fiew tests and gave up as I was crashing against the pier a fiew times,... I would say we should again have an eye on it to have a clear guide how to use it,... I dont understand it anymore.

I can confirm what Paolo says, the scope is pointing more or less right but flip button is not active while the scopes weights are hanging in air,...

Well, at least I'm not alone 
Thank you very much for checking!

[Armando]

Hi gpaolo and the_lizardking,

what I see in current LFEP ASCOM code is that SideOfPier is directly related to the Dec rotation that makes Dec increasing/decreasing:
if Dec increases by clockwise rotation, a side of pier change makes it decreasing by clockwise rotation...

According to ASCOM documentation, passing through the Pole should cause a pier side change.
But passing through the Pole makes Dec increasing and then decreasing (by the same single clockwise or counter-clockwise rotation); in a few words on the target side it causes a change of the positive Dec axis. So I'm tempted to think that the driver is ASCOM compliant...

Maybe you were using as PierSide the physical one, not the right one???
Obviously I may be confused; so don't hesitate to tell me what is wrong...


CS
Armando

[gpaolo]

I will try again this afternoon, yesterday I tried all combinations of DEC rotations and PierSide in ASCOM driver to have the correct movement but the pier flip indicator continued working on the opposite way.
I have to study better the physical side of pier stuff because it is not really clear to me, but the final behavior of the driver was not definitively the one described in figure 4, but the opposite.
What do you mean with:

Maybe you were using as PierSide the physical one, not the right one???

Is there any option where we can choose the physical PierSide or the "ASCOM" pierside?

[Armando]

Hi gpaolo,

I will try again this afternoon, yesterday I tried all combinations of DEC rotations and PierSide in ASCOM driver to have the correct movement but the pier flip indicator continued working on the opposite way.
I have to study better the physical side of pier stuff because it is not really clear to me, but the final behavior of the driver was not definitively the one described in figure 4, but the opposite.

Ok, let me know... 

What do you mean with:

Maybe you were using as PierSide the physical one, not the right one???

Is there any option where we can choose the physical PierSide or the "ASCOM" pierside?

No, simply are you sure you were using the ASCOM compliant pier side?

The current ASCOM convention is that pierEast is mapped to the pointing state that pertains when the telescope is on the east side of the mount and pointing at locations on the celestial equator. Please let me know if this is the case...

Anyway, If you will find ASCOM reverse mode working in MaxIm (I suggested this setting 3 times...  ) then I could add an option to make both normal and reverse modes available directly by the ASCOM driver...

CS
Armando

[gpaolo]

No, simply are you sure you were using the ASCOM compliant pier side?

The current ASCOM convention is that pierEast is mapped to the pointing state that pertains when the telescope is on the east side of the mount and pointing at locations on the celestial equator. Please let me know if this is the case...

Just to be sure, when I initialize the side of pier, do I have to enter the physical side (fig. 5 of the document) or the ASCOM one (fig. 4)?
In the position shown before, in Stellarium, I should be on west or east side of the pier?

Anyway, If you will find ASCOM reverse mode working in MaxIm (I suggested this setting 3 times...  ) then I could add an option to make both normal and reverse modes available directly by the ASCOM driver...

I will try it, as soon as the mount is in the shadow, but reversing it in Maxim will not be a solution, because CCD Autopilot directly reads it from the driver.
Moreover, as also Lizardking said, the flip telescope button in ASCOM interface is disabled when it should be enabled, meaning that the status is wrong also for the driver...

[gpaolo]

Ok, I'm pointing at A point, as on the document, and the flip button is disabled and the pier flip status coming from the driver is active.
The side of pier is west, according to the document (and to my eyes  ), telescope pointing east, so the pointing state should be Normal according to figure 2.
Forcing the pier flip on Maxim doesn't have any effect on the informations received from the driver, nor on the flip telescope button, as expected...

What should I check now?

[gpaolo]

I forgot the picture...



The goto is working fine, so motor directions are correct too.

[Armando]

Hi gpaolo,

by assuming the scope always "above counterweight", the right pier side for that target is surely the West one.
Nothing more is required and so, frankly, I'm tempted to think that the client is expecting a wrong not ASCOM compliant but reversed pier side.

Could you confirm that using in Maxim "reverse pier side" mode the pier flip status disappears and everything works as expected???

CS
Armando

[gpaolo]

Hi gpaolo,

by assuming the scope always "above counterweight", the right pier side for that target is surely the West one.

Yes the telescope is above the counterweight, it is like in the picture I showed you yesterday.

Nothing more is required and so, frankly, I'm tempted to think that the client is expecting a wrong not ASCOM compliant but reversed pier side.

But the client is receiving the "pier flip" from ASCOM... If I understand correctly the document you sent me, in this position the ASCOM driver should sent the normal pointing state (or PierWest, in picture 4), while it is sending a "Through The Pole" status. I doubt that it is a issue of the client, expecting an opposite value, because also the ASCOM interface is behaving on the opposite way, since in this position is not possible to flip the telescope.
If I invert the DEC, having East-East on the interface, the flip telescope button became active (and the pier flip indicator disappears from Maxim).

Could you confirm that using in Maxim "reverse pier side" mode the pier flip status disappears and everything works as expected???

Well, if I enable the "reverse pier side" in Maxim I don't see the flag anymore, as expected (that, in my opinion, confirms that the driver is sending the reversed status), but I cannot confirm that everything works because I'm not using Maxim to move the mount, just to check the mount status. CCD Autopilot unfortunately doesn't allow me to reverse the pier flip flag (that would have solved all issues here...).
I would be glad to test the change in the driver by myself but I don't have any experience in ASCOM interface programming (I'm a low-level programmer, give me a PIC and I will do anything, but when it comes to do something on the pc...    ). Do you have any tutorial about ASCOM programming with C#? I begun to study it some time ago but I didn't have time to learn it... I made some application (hardware) for the telescope and I have to rely on existing driver and I would like to do the interface by myself...

[Armando]

Hi gpaolo,

Nothing more is required and so, frankly, I'm tempted to think that the client is expecting a wrong not ASCOM compliant but reversed pier side.

But the client is receiving the "pier flip" from ASCOM...

No pier flip is mentioned in ASCOM documentation. Only the pierside is implemented...

If I understand correctly the document you sent me, in this position the ASCOM driver should sent the normal pointing state (or PierWest, in picture 4), while it is sending a "Through The Pole" status.

By LFEP ASCOM driver, telescope above the counterweight is not a requirement! You can have W or E pier side, whatever is the target position...

I doubt that it is a issue of the client, expecting an opposite value, because also the ASCOM interface is behaving on the opposite way, since in this position is not possible to flip the telescope.

Would you send a flip command from this position?

If I invert the DEC, having East-East on the interface, the flip telescope button became active (and the pier flip indicator disappears from Maxim).

Because the ASCOM driver assumes the telescope is below the counterweight and so in this case it enables a flip command...
The pier flip indicator is a MaxIm feature...

Well, if I enable the "reverse pier side" in Maxim I don't see the flag anymore, as expected (that, in my opinion, confirms that the driver is sending the reversed status), but I cannot confirm that everything works because I'm not using Maxim to move the mount, just to check the mount status.

The driver returns the pier side shown by the ASCOM GUI interface. I think you agree with me it's the right pier side.

CCD Autopilot unfortunately doesn't allow me to reverse the pier flip flag (that would have solved all issues here...).

This is clear. Now I mean to define what should be changed: the PierSide reading occurs also "internally" by the ASCOM GUI functions themselves.

I would be glad to test the change in the driver by myself but I don't have any experience in ASCOM interface programming (I'm a low-level programmer, give me a PIC and I will do anything, but when it comes to do something on the pc...    ). Do you have any tutorial about ASCOM programming with C#? I begun to study it some time ago but I didn't have time to learn it... I made some application (hardware) for the telescope and I have to rely on existing driver and I would like to do the interface by myself...

Nothing special. 
I also prefer PIC firmware development. But just to add support for a LFEP extension made by myself (http://astrophotohobby.altervista.org/LFEP/LFEP_focuser.avi) I started to take care of the LFEP ASCOM driver . Great part of the driver was developed by Gerald who is no more involved in the development. So I'm still taking care of the driver to solve possible bugs and for further improvements...

CS
Armando

[gpaolo]

No pier flip is mentioned in ASCOM documentation. Only the pierside is implemented...

Uh... ok. So, how can the program determine if the pier flip has been performed? In Maxim I can select ASCOM normal, inverted or calculated from position.
If I select the ASCOM inverted and I get the correct information, I can only suppose that the status (whatever it is) sent by ASCOM is reversed...

By LFEP ASCOM driver, telescope above the counterweight is not a requirement! You can have W or E pier side, whatever is the target position...

Ok, understood.
In fact, I'm able to perform a goto without flipping the telescope.

Would you send a flip command from this position?

No 
I just tried to perform a goto beyond the meridian and the button became active, so that's working.



See that with ASCOM Inverted choosen, the status indicated by Maxim is correct.
Then I performed the Flip Telescope, which didn't work very well...
I started from this position:



and ended in this position:



the DEC was quite lower than before. The star (well, the position) was almost at zenit



but the DEC ended at about 45 degrees... (and Maxim was correctly telling that pier flip had been performed, and DEC movements are also ok).
But let's solve one problem at the time...

Because the ASCOM driver assumes the telescope is below the counterweight and so in this case it enables a flip command...
The pier flip indicator is a MaxIm feature...

Ok! Now I understand it!

The driver returns the pier side shown by the ASCOM GUI interface. I think you agree with me it's the right pier side.

Yes, it is.
But I tend to think that if, basing on the information delivered by ASCOM, both CCDAP and Maxim think that the pier flip has been performed, it is more probable that some of the informations returned by ASCOM interface used to calculate the pier flip status are not correct...

This is clear. Now I mean to define what should be changed: the PierSide reading occurs also "internally" by the ASCOM GUI functions themselves.

Well, on this part I cannot help you very much, except by testing the modifications... I can check the pier flip status returned by maxim at any time, but to check if CCDAP is working I need a clear night and to begin to track a star...

Nothing special. 
I also prefer PIC firmware development. But just to add support for a LFEP extension made by myself (http://astrophotohobby.altervista.org/LFEP/LFEP_focuser.avi) I started to take care of the LFEP ASCOM driver . Great part of the driver was developed by Gerald who is no more involved in the development. So I'm still taking care of the driver to solve possible bugs and for further improvements...

Nice! I have made a clone of Robofocus too, but as I said I had to copy the protocol of the real Robofocus to be able to use its software and drivers...
Well until I learn to program in C# I will only be able to do the "betatester", I hope to be able soon to participate more in the development. Thank you very much for you help and for your time!

[Armando]

Hi gpaolo,

I need only a confirmation to figure out what should be changed: if you intentionally set the wrong pier side (and change Dec rotation) everything works as expected (with MaxIm NORMAL pier side), right?
If so I need only to figure out how to alter only the PierSide value returned to (and set by) the ASCOM client (unfortunately the pier side is used - read and set - by many methods by the driver itself ) .

CS
Armando

[Armando]

Hi gpaolo.

could you test the attached driver? Please let me know. 

CS
Armando

[gpaolo]

Sure! I will try this afternoon... and with some luck also tonight with the telescope tracking! Thanks!
Anyway, yes, in my first tests if I set the wrong pierside CCDAP works fine and Maxim does not indicates the pierflip. Yesterday night I saw in the changelog that at version 1.4.2 (more or less...) the SideOfPier was changed to be compliant with... I don't remember what. Maybe something went wrong at that point...
In any case, I will let you know!