LittleFoot Elegance Photo Community Forum
LittleFoot Elegance Photo => LittleFoot Elegance Photo => Topic started by: gpaolo on Friday, 06.09.13 - 09:00:29 - CEST
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Hi,
I'm trying to use CCD Autopilot to control the CCD and I'm having a problem related to the pier flip.
I explain what I did tonight, maybe it's the best way to understand the problem...
I started the observation with the telescope west looking east, after the unpark command.
I did the guide calibration, everything went fine, but when I begun to guide, the Y axis moves in the opposite direction.
By connecting the scope to Maxim, I noticed that the pier flip status was active, while I never performed any pier flip.
If I change the scope direction on the LFEP control panel, from west looking east to east looking east, the guide begins to work and the pier flip status disappear, so it is a problem definitively related to that.
If instead than starting with the scope west looking east I perform the calibration with the scope east looking west (no pier flip status active), the guide also works.
So my idea is that the program performs the guide calibration thinking to be in normal condition (no pier flip) but, when it comes the moment to guide, it sees that the telescope has the pier flip active and it decides to reverse the Y axis.
I thought that the pier flip status should be active only when the pier flip is performed, not "by default" with the scope west looking east -which doesn't have much sense to me, because you must flip going in east-west direction, not on the other way. Do you know if there is any way to reset this status so that the controller will stop telling to the control program to reverse the guide direction?
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I think this more a bug... I will also try today,... and let you know.
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I'm not sure if it is a bug or a misconfiguration. Since my LFEP is of 2nd hand, I don't know if the previous owner made some special configuration for its setup.
Next time I have a clear night, I would like to try to set it up as it is, perform a meridian flip to make the flag change, then manually move the telescope on the other side and synchronize it again.
In any case, I would be grateful if you can check. As I said, telescope west looking east --> pier flip active, telescope east looking west --> pier flip not active, it is the opposite of what should be.
If it turns out that it is a bug, maybe through the ASCOM interface would be possible to add a switch to reset the status of the flag.
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Hi gpaolo,
if you're using MaxIm DL you can try to make use of ASCOM Inverted mode as Side of Pier (if you're having issues by ASCOM normal mode): you can select it by Observatory setup tab (in Telescope options).
I hope it helps.
CS
Armando
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Thanks Armando, I will check it out!
Unfortunately, I don't think it is a maxim problem...
When I work only with Maxim, everything is fine. The issue comes when I try to use CCD Autopilot, which overwrites Maxim setup with its own to handle the pier flip. So, when the LFEP tells CCD Autopilot that the pier flip status is active, CCD Autopilot automatically reverse the Y direction of the guide.
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Hi gpaolo,
there is no flipped event or any ASCOM property related to it: the only ASCOM method to be taken into account is SideOfPier. And I think it works as expected.
I would expect guiding working without any issue soon after a calibration regardless of SideOfPier if no GoTo commands occur...
I don't use CCD AutoPilot but I would suggest to check its settings.
CS
Armando
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I spent more than four hours tonight trying any setting in CCD Autopilot and unfortunately it relies completely on the informations received by the controller...
So, if there is no ASCOM event or property related to pier flip, how could I see the pier flip information in Maxim when I connect the telescope and just be able to change it by switching the side of the telescope in the ASCOM panel? Is it possible that it is calculated by Maxim itself? I don't really know how it works, I though that it was something determined by the controller...
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So, if there is no ASCOM event or property related to pier flip, how could I see the pier flip information in Maxim when I connect the telescope and just be able to change it by switching the side of the telescope in the ASCOM panel?
I think the PierFlip command should work exactly as the ASCOM LFEP Flip button: it's enabled when a flip is opportune.
Is it possible that it is calculated by Maxim itself?
Yes, according to SideOfPier returned by ASCOM driver on request by the ASCOM client (MaxIm or maybe CCDAutoPilot if it also communicates directly to LFEP by its own ASCOM connection in your case).
CS
Armando
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So, if there is no ASCOM event or property related to pier flip, how could I see the pier flip information in Maxim when I connect the telescope and just be able to change it by switching the side of the telescope in the ASCOM panel?
I think the PierFlip command should work exactly as the ASCOM LFEP Flip button: it's enabled when a flip is opportune.
Ok, understood, but in this case I'm talking of the pier flip status, I mean the flag that indicates that the telescope has been flipped.
Is it possible that it is calculated by Maxim itself?
Yes, according to SideOfPier returned by ASCOM driver on request by the ASCOM client (MaxIm or maybe CCDAutoPilot if it also communicates directly to LFEP by its own ASCOM connection in your case).
[/quote]
Understood. So, if it turns out that it is a bug, would it be possible to instruct the ASCOM interface to return the opposite value of SideOfPier?
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Understood. So, if it turns out that it is a bug, would it be possible to instruct the ASCOM interface to return the opposite value of SideOfPier?
I'm tempted to think that by this change a flip event would still be detected by CCDAutoPilot (even if not occurred) when starting from the opposite side... ::) Am I wrong?
CS
Armando
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I don't know, I thought that the pier flip was an event indicated by the controller only when the flip occurred, but instead it seems to be a status depending on the combination of the telescope position. In my case, this status is active on the wrong side (telescope west looking east).
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Hi gpaolo,
you can find the following instructions at http://www.ccdware.com/help/ccdap5/hs220.htm :
Maxim-specific requirements: Go to the Camera Control window, hit the Settings button to bring up the Guider Settings window. Select the Advanced tab. Under Guider Motor Control, make sure to select Do Not Change On Pier Flip. Do not check Pier Flip on the Camera Control Window/Guide tab. If you connect to your telescope in Maxim's Observatory window, be sure to uncheck Auto Scope Dec., Pier Flip and Auto Pier Flip. CCDAutoPilot manages all necessary meridian flip issues internally and allowing Maxim to make flip-related changes will most likely cause guiding problems. A telescope connection is required to use pulse guide, called "Telescope" in Maxim's Autoguider Output Control Via selection. When using the Telescope guide option, It may be helpful to check Safety Slew on the Guiding page, Meridian Flip box of CCDAutoPilot.
Maybe it helps to solve the issue.
CS
Armando
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No, unfortunately it doesn't. It is one of the first things I checked.
What I understand is:
- CCDAP makes calibration assuming that the telescope is in normal setup (no flipping)
- When CCDAP starts guiding, it checks the telescope status and receives the pier flip information (even if no flip has ever occurred) and sets the guiding axis accordingly
- Guide star is inevitably lost...
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Hi gpaolo,
No, unfortunately it doesn't. It is one of the first things I checked.
What I understand is:
- CCDAP makes calibration assuming that the telescope is in normal setup (no flipping)
- When CCDAP starts guiding, it checks the telescope status and receives the pier flip information (even if no flip has ever occurred) and sets the guiding axis accordingly
- Guide star is inevitably lost...
this is the reason why I think that reversing the PierSide returned by ASCOM will cause the same issue when starting on the opposite side (that now causes you no issues...).
Maybe it's a CCDAP bug...
CS
Armando
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Maybe... but you could choose in this way how to configure the pier flip status.
In any case, as far as I know, right now the pier flip status is inverted on my LFEP: with the scope on west looking east, it should not be active.
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Maybe... but you could choose in this way how to configure the pier flip status.
By returning a wrong PierSide???
In any case, as far as I know, right now the pier flip status is inverted on my LFEP: with the scope on west looking east, it should not be active.
You mean wrongly "computed" and shown by the software you're using, according to the right PierSide returned by ASCOM driver...
Just to know, is the mount already aligned (I mean with a sync command occurred) before starting CCDAP?
CS
Armando
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You mean wrongly "computed" and shown by the software you're using, according to the right PierSide returned by ASCOM driver...
No, I'm not getting the right pier side, I'mgetting the wrong pier side now. It is the opposite of what should be, that is the problem.
With the scope west looking east I get the pier flip active, while there is no way that I can perform the pier flip in this configuration.
Yes, the telescope is synchronized at program startup.
I was thinking, is it possible that the LFEP is configured to think to be in the wrong hemisphere? In that case, west looking east would require the pier flip...
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Hi gpaolo,
No, I'm not getting the right pier side, I'm getting the wrong pier side now. It is the opposite of what should be, that is the problem.
With the scope west looking east I get the pier flip active, while there is no way that I can perform the pier flip in this configuration.
If the issue is related to a wrong PierSide then you need to be sure Dec motor direction is properly set.
So by a click on ASCOM handbox InvertDec button you can set the right/current PierSide; then you can send a GoTo command. If it makes the mount moving on Dec in the wrong direction you have to change Dec direction setting (you find it by LFEP ASCOM Telescope setup - Motors tab).
Maybe this is the reason of the troubles...
CS
Armando
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Ah! Ok, thanks! That sounds like a very promising suggestion! As soon as I can install again the telescope (damn weather...) I will try it! ;)
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I'm making some tests right now but there is definetively something that I'm missing...
This is the position of the telescope:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uK0-63Q0LF4/Ui9e_ZYuRdI/AAAAAAAAKms/06XkRJIdbCw/s912/IMG_20130910_191000.jpg)
as you can see, the telescope would be on the west side of the pier, looking towards east. For me, this is the only sure thing.
In this position, to avoid to have the "pier flip" indicator active, I have to tell the ASCOM driver that the telescope is EAST looking east, which is quite false:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jD1ASiXGzpE/Ui9fBLCYDHI/AAAAAAAAKm0/S9VnLa8zCg0/s1024/Immagine.jpg)
and I have to invert the DEC motor direction to make it moving correctly.
Note that, in this way, the flip telescope is not active: to be able to use it, I have to press the InvertDEC button, to have the telescope west looking east (as it really is), but when the mount performs the flip, the DEC axis is moving on the opposite side!
This is quite a mess...
Any idea?
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Ciao gpaolo,
please set the right PierSide and then send a GoTo command; I think your telescope will move on Dec in the wrong direction. If so you need to change your Dec rotation mode.
Then also PierFlip should work as expected by keeping the right PierSide too... (I hope :) )
Cieli Sereni!
Armando
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In a few words:
In this position, to avoid to have the "pier flip" indicator active, I have to tell the ASCOM driver that the telescope is EAST looking east, which is quite false:
No! You should tell the ASCOM driver that the telescope is W looking E AND change your Dec rotation mode...
After the Dec motor orientation change disconnect the LFEP by ASCOM and powercycle it.
CS
Armando
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No, no way...
Now the telescope is on the west looking east, as in the previous image, the DEC is moving correctly (with normal direction) and the pier flip is active on the wrong side:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yk_qPDCbHmY/Ui91aEFxaUI/AAAAAAAAKnE/M5SqpjRD65M/s1024/Immagine2.jpg)
You can see in stellarium where the telescope is looking. The position is as before.
Goto movement are correctly executed, so mount configuration should be correct.
In LFEP handbox the position of the side of pier should be correct (the telescope is on the west side of the pier) and it correctly indicates that the telescope is looking east, BUT the flip button is not active.
In Maxim you can see that the mount is telling the program that the telescope has been flipped, while it is not possible in this position.
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Maybe I'm making some confusion because I'm coming from the FS2 approach -which was honestly a lot easier in this case...-, but I think that the pier flip indication should be a lot more straightforward: if the telescope is on west side, I can perform the flip (thus the pier flip status is inactive), and if the telescope is on east side, the mount has executed the pier flip.
Motor direction, looking east or west, any other thing should not have any importance: it is an action depending on telescope position and RA rotation direction. In my case, it is like if I were in southern hemisphere, with the RA axis inverted ??? (before someone asks, yes, I've checked latitude and longitude, they are ok ::) )
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Hi gpaolo,
what I know is that SideOfPier should report pointing state, not the physical pier side (as indicated in the attachment...).
So the user should set Dec motor rotation so that with SideOfPier right (I mean ASCOM compliant) GoTo works as expected.
But now I'm a little confused since changing Dec motor rotation obliges to change also current SideOfPier (to make GoTo working). And so playing with Dec rotation should change also the flip status indicated by MaxIm... ::)
Could you try to set Side of Pier ASCOM Inverted in MaxIm (Observatory Setup - Telescope options)? Maybe CCDAP relies upon MaxIm flip status...
CS
Armando
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To be honest I also had problems with the flip option. I made a fiew tests and gave up as I was crashing against the pier a fiew times,... I would say we should again have an eye on it to have a clear guide how to use it,... I dont understand it anymore.
I can confirm what Paolo says, the scope is pointing more or less right but flip button is not active while the scopes weights are hanging in air,...
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Hi Armando,
The behavior that I'm observing is not compliant with figure 4, so it may be a driver issue.
I will make more tests today if I can, but I don't think it is a problem of Maxim, since during the use of CCDAP the telescope remains disconnected in Maxim.
I will also check (if I'm able to do it...) if the driver is reporting the physical side of the pier, like in figure 5.
To be honest I also had problems with the flip option. I made a fiew tests and gave up as I was crashing against the pier a fiew times,... I would say we should again have an eye on it to have a clear guide how to use it,... I dont understand it anymore.
I can confirm what Paolo says, the scope is pointing more or less right but flip button is not active while the scopes weights are hanging in air,...
Well, at least I'm not alone ;D
Thank you very much for checking!
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Hi gpaolo and the_lizardking,
what I see in current LFEP ASCOM code is that SideOfPier is directly related to the Dec rotation that makes Dec increasing/decreasing:
if Dec increases by clockwise rotation, a side of pier change makes it decreasing by clockwise rotation...
According to ASCOM documentation, passing through the Pole should cause a pier side change.
But passing through the Pole makes Dec increasing and then decreasing (by the same single clockwise or counter-clockwise rotation); in a few words on the target side it causes a change of the positive Dec axis. So I'm tempted to think that the driver is ASCOM compliant...
Maybe you were using as PierSide the physical one, not the right one???
Obviously I may be confused; so don't hesitate to tell me what is wrong...
CS
Armando
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I will try again this afternoon, yesterday I tried all combinations of DEC rotations and PierSide in ASCOM driver to have the correct movement but the pier flip indicator continued working on the opposite way.
I have to study better the physical side of pier stuff because it is not really clear to me, but the final behavior of the driver was not definitively the one described in figure 4, but the opposite.
What do you mean with:
Maybe you were using as PierSide the physical one, not the right one???
Is there any option where we can choose the physical PierSide or the "ASCOM" pierside?
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Hi gpaolo,
I will try again this afternoon, yesterday I tried all combinations of DEC rotations and PierSide in ASCOM driver to have the correct movement but the pier flip indicator continued working on the opposite way.
I have to study better the physical side of pier stuff because it is not really clear to me, but the final behavior of the driver was not definitively the one described in figure 4, but the opposite.
Ok, let me know... ;)
What do you mean with:
Maybe you were using as PierSide the physical one, not the right one???
Is there any option where we can choose the physical PierSide or the "ASCOM" pierside?
No, simply are you sure you were using the ASCOM compliant pier side?
The current ASCOM convention is that pierEast is mapped to the pointing state that pertains when the telescope is on the east side of the mount and pointing at locations on the celestial equator. Please let me know if this is the case...
Anyway, If you will find ASCOM reverse mode working in MaxIm (I suggested this setting 3 times... >:( :) ) then I could add an option to make both normal and reverse modes available directly by the ASCOM driver...
CS
Armando
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No, simply are you sure you were using the ASCOM compliant pier side?
The current ASCOM convention is that pierEast is mapped to the pointing state that pertains when the telescope is on the east side of the mount and pointing at locations on the celestial equator. Please let me know if this is the case...
Just to be sure, when I initialize the side of pier, do I have to enter the physical side (fig. 5 of the document) or the ASCOM one (fig. 4)?
In the position shown before, in Stellarium, I should be on west or east side of the pier?
Anyway, If you will find ASCOM reverse mode working in MaxIm (I suggested this setting 3 times... >:( :) ) then I could add an option to make both normal and reverse modes available directly by the ASCOM driver...
I will try it, as soon as the mount is in the shadow, but reversing it in Maxim will not be a solution, because CCD Autopilot directly reads it from the driver.
Moreover, as also Lizardking said, the flip telescope button in ASCOM interface is disabled when it should be enabled, meaning that the status is wrong also for the driver...
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Ok, I'm pointing at A point, as on the document, and the flip button is disabled and the pier flip status coming from the driver is active.
The side of pier is west, according to the document (and to my eyes ;D ), telescope pointing east, so the pointing state should be Normal according to figure 2.
Forcing the pier flip on Maxim doesn't have any effect on the informations received from the driver, nor on the flip telescope button, as expected...
What should I check now?
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I forgot the picture...
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-92-6w_2r_Zw/UjCmtsB_HZI/AAAAAAAAKnc/HGogYNHLZ8M/s1040/puntoA.jpg)
The goto is working fine, so motor directions are correct too.
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Hi gpaolo,
by assuming the scope always "above counterweight", the right pier side for that target is surely the West one.
Nothing more is required and so, frankly, I'm tempted to think that the client is expecting a wrong not ASCOM compliant but reversed pier side.
Could you confirm that using in Maxim "reverse pier side" mode the pier flip status disappears and everything works as expected???
CS
Armando
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Hi gpaolo,
by assuming the scope always "above counterweight", the right pier side for that target is surely the West one.
Yes the telescope is above the counterweight, it is like in the picture I showed you yesterday.
Nothing more is required and so, frankly, I'm tempted to think that the client is expecting a wrong not ASCOM compliant but reversed pier side.
But the client is receiving the "pier flip" from ASCOM... If I understand correctly the document you sent me, in this position the ASCOM driver should sent the normal pointing state (or PierWest, in picture 4), while it is sending a "Through The Pole" status. I doubt that it is a issue of the client, expecting an opposite value, because also the ASCOM interface is behaving on the opposite way, since in this position is not possible to flip the telescope.
If I invert the DEC, having East-East on the interface, the flip telescope button became active (and the pier flip indicator disappears from Maxim).
Could you confirm that using in Maxim "reverse pier side" mode the pier flip status disappears and everything works as expected???
Well, if I enable the "reverse pier side" in Maxim I don't see the flag anymore, as expected (that, in my opinion, confirms that the driver is sending the reversed status), but I cannot confirm that everything works because I'm not using Maxim to move the mount, just to check the mount status. CCD Autopilot unfortunately doesn't allow me to reverse the pier flip flag (that would have solved all issues here...).
I would be glad to test the change in the driver by myself but I don't have any experience in ASCOM interface programming (I'm a low-level programmer, give me a PIC and I will do anything, but when it comes to do something on the pc... ??? ;D ). Do you have any tutorial about ASCOM programming with C#? I begun to study it some time ago but I didn't have time to learn it... I made some application (hardware) for the telescope and I have to rely on existing driver and I would like to do the interface by myself...
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Hi gpaolo,
Nothing more is required and so, frankly, I'm tempted to think that the client is expecting a wrong not ASCOM compliant but reversed pier side.
But the client is receiving the "pier flip" from ASCOM...
No pier flip is mentioned in ASCOM documentation. Only the pierside is implemented...
If I understand correctly the document you sent me, in this position the ASCOM driver should sent the normal pointing state (or PierWest, in picture 4), while it is sending a "Through The Pole" status.
By LFEP ASCOM driver, telescope above the counterweight is not a requirement! You can have W or E pier side, whatever is the target position...
I doubt that it is a issue of the client, expecting an opposite value, because also the ASCOM interface is behaving on the opposite way, since in this position is not possible to flip the telescope.
Would you send a flip command from this position?
If I invert the DEC, having East-East on the interface, the flip telescope button became active (and the pier flip indicator disappears from Maxim).
Because the ASCOM driver assumes the telescope is below the counterweight and so in this case it enables a flip command...
The pier flip indicator is a MaxIm feature...
Well, if I enable the "reverse pier side" in Maxim I don't see the flag anymore, as expected (that, in my opinion, confirms that the driver is sending the reversed status), but I cannot confirm that everything works because I'm not using Maxim to move the mount, just to check the mount status.
The driver returns the pier side shown by the ASCOM GUI interface. I think you agree with me it's the right pier side.
CCD Autopilot unfortunately doesn't allow me to reverse the pier flip flag (that would have solved all issues here...).
This is clear. Now I mean to define what should be changed: the PierSide reading occurs also "internally" by the ASCOM GUI functions themselves.
I would be glad to test the change in the driver by myself but I don't have any experience in ASCOM interface programming (I'm a low-level programmer, give me a PIC and I will do anything, but when it comes to do something on the pc... ??? ;D ). Do you have any tutorial about ASCOM programming with C#? I begun to study it some time ago but I didn't have time to learn it... I made some application (hardware) for the telescope and I have to rely on existing driver and I would like to do the interface by myself...
Nothing special. :)
I also prefer PIC firmware development. But just to add support for a LFEP extension made by myself (http://astrophotohobby.altervista.org/LFEP/LFEP_focuser.avi) I started to take care of the LFEP ASCOM driver . Great part of the driver was developed by Gerald who is no more involved in the development. So I'm still taking care of the driver to solve possible bugs and for further improvements...
CS
Armando
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No pier flip is mentioned in ASCOM documentation. Only the pierside is implemented...
Uh... ok. So, how can the program determine if the pier flip has been performed? In Maxim I can select ASCOM normal, inverted or calculated from position.
If I select the ASCOM inverted and I get the correct information, I can only suppose that the status (whatever it is) sent by ASCOM is reversed...
By LFEP ASCOM driver, telescope above the counterweight is not a requirement! You can have W or E pier side, whatever is the target position...
Ok, understood.
In fact, I'm able to perform a goto without flipping the telescope.
Would you send a flip command from this position?
No :D
I just tried to perform a goto beyond the meridian and the button became active, so that's working.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gYcmUJOG1wE/UjC5QTGFREI/AAAAAAAAKn8/OQQPWYD-YMs/s1024/flip.jpg)
See that with ASCOM Inverted choosen, the status indicated by Maxim is correct.
Then I performed the Flip Telescope, which didn't work very well...
I started from this position:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bErYD9LA5Wk/UjC5MP5pUaI/AAAAAAAAKns/E-y9Bvq2-oY/s912/IMG_20130911_203018.jpg)
and ended in this position:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-h16eijeItxg/UjC5OOukOLI/AAAAAAAAKn0/or9t6Roy50o/s912/IMG_20130911_203609.jpg)
the DEC was quite lower than before. The star (well, the position) was almost at zenit
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qzJ4irjS_qw/UjC5SmnCNSI/AAAAAAAAKoE/4JwrypYfgWE/s1024/flip2.jpg)
but the DEC ended at about 45 degrees... (and Maxim was correctly telling that pier flip had been performed, and DEC movements are also ok).
But let's solve one problem at the time...
Because the ASCOM driver assumes the telescope is below the counterweight and so in this case it enables a flip command...
The pier flip indicator is a MaxIm feature...
Ok! Now I understand it!
The driver returns the pier side shown by the ASCOM GUI interface. I think you agree with me it's the right pier side.
Yes, it is.
But I tend to think that if, basing on the information delivered by ASCOM, both CCDAP and Maxim think that the pier flip has been performed, it is more probable that some of the informations returned by ASCOM interface used to calculate the pier flip status are not correct...
This is clear. Now I mean to define what should be changed: the PierSide reading occurs also "internally" by the ASCOM GUI functions themselves.
Well, on this part I cannot help you very much, except by testing the modifications... I can check the pier flip status returned by maxim at any time, but to check if CCDAP is working I need a clear night and to begin to track a star...
Nothing special. :)
I also prefer PIC firmware development. But just to add support for a LFEP extension made by myself (http://astrophotohobby.altervista.org/LFEP/LFEP_focuser.avi) I started to take care of the LFEP ASCOM driver . Great part of the driver was developed by Gerald who is no more involved in the development. So I'm still taking care of the driver to solve possible bugs and for further improvements...
Nice! I have made a clone of Robofocus too, but as I said I had to copy the protocol of the real Robofocus to be able to use its software and drivers...
Well until I learn to program in C# I will only be able to do the "betatester", I hope to be able soon to participate more in the development. Thank you very much for you help and for your time!
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Hi gpaolo,
I need only a confirmation to figure out what should be changed: if you intentionally set the wrong pier side (and change Dec rotation) everything works as expected (with MaxIm NORMAL pier side), right?
If so I need only to figure out how to alter only the PierSide value returned to (and set by) the ASCOM client (unfortunately the pier side is used - read and set - by many methods by the driver itself ::) ) .
CS
Armando
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Hi gpaolo.
could you test the attached driver? Please let me know. ;)
CS
Armando
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Sure! I will try this afternoon... and with some luck also tonight with the telescope tracking! Thanks!
Anyway, yes, in my first tests if I set the wrong pierside CCDAP works fine and Maxim does not indicates the pierflip. Yesterday night I saw in the changelog that at version 1.4.2 (more or less...) the SideOfPier was changed to be compliant with... I don't remember what. Maybe something went wrong at that point...
In any case, I will let you know!
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By the way, do I have to remove the previous version of the driver before installing the new one or can I just overwrite?
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Hi gpaolo,
simply execute the exe .
CS
Armando
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Hi gpaolo,
Yesterday night I saw in the changelog that at version 1.4.2 (more or less...) the SideOfPier was changed to be compliant with...
I just found this in the change log:
1.4.96 (2012-07-07)
Changed PierEast and PierWest.
This was necessary to be conform with ACP.
The nomenclature of ACP states:
PierWest = telescope is on the west and facing east
PierEast = telescope is on the east and facing west The ASCOM / ACP designation for the meridian side is therefore inverse to the LFEP's handbox.
I think it was changed starting from r288.
Anyway my idea now is to keep the LFEP utility unchanged and to allow the user to check a checkbox to have the opposite pier side "outside of the driver".
I already built it. If you confirm the previously attached driver (that works always in reverse mode outside of the driver) is ok, then I'll upload the just built release...
CS
Armando
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...hmm... where is the new option? I cannot find it... ???
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-alCc5BGE5wc/UjHzJf3E6hI/AAAAAAAAKoU/w4MtjUnYk8k/s1029/flip3.jpg)
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...hmm... where is the new option? I cannot find it... ???
In the attached driver the new option is missing. You'll find it in the next release; it's ready but I need a confirmation that the driver you are going to test (that works only in reverse mode) is ok...
CS
Armando
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Aaaahhh!! Ok! I was going to dismount the entire PC to get that option visible, you just stopped me in time ;D
I finish to eat and I test it...
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If you find the driver working you can check later also the attached one that includes the new option (next to East / West orientation checkboxes of your screenshot...). If the option (to be set only if required) is changed while LFEP is connected by ASCOM, the user has to fully disconnect the LFEP by ASCOM...
CS
Armando
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So far so good... Maxim is correctly indicating pier side, movements are fine, I wait the dark to check guiding with CCDAP...
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Well, I could define this night a complete failure.
As I said, now Maxim recognize correctly the pier side, BUT... that damn CCD autopilot keeps doing the same.
So there may be more things to solve. I tried to use TheSky and Poth instead of connecting directly CCDAP to the ASCOM driver, but nothing changed. I tried also to use the LX200 standard driver, but it didn't work either. I'm running out of ideas, I thought that the problem was coming from the pier flip but I'm not so sure anymore.
I fear I will have to find another solution instead of CCDAP to solve the problem of focusing between each image (because everything comes from this: with the new telescope, I need to refocus about every 30 minutes for the first hours and I need to do it automatically...).
Anyway, I noticed a strange thing: why with the telescope well beyond the meridian, almost touching the column, in this position:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MgpsjmqW5tQ/UjJh9JJncSI/AAAAAAAAKok/SXpY5mho8ho/s720/IMG_20130913_012500.jpg)
I wasn't allowed to flip the mount?
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6HtxBphswoM/UjJh_A2Z4YI/AAAAAAAAKos/mXgrbpw96r4/s912/IMG_20130913_012520.jpg)
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Hi gpaolo,
As I said, now Maxim recognize correctly the pier side, BUT... that damn CCD autopilot keeps doing the same.
So there may be more things to solve. I tried to use TheSky and Poth instead of connecting directly CCDAP to the ASCOM driver, but nothing changed. I tried also to use the LX200 standard driver, but it didn't work either. I'm running out of ideas, I thought that the problem was coming from the pier flip but I'm not so sure anymore.
Maybe it's simply a CCDAP bug/wrong configuration.
Anyway, I noticed a strange thing: why with the telescope well beyond the meridian, almost touching the column, in this position:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MgpsjmqW5tQ/UjJh9JJncSI/AAAAAAAAKok/SXpY5mho8ho/s720/IMG_20130913_012500.jpg)
I wasn't allowed to flip the mount?
There is a flip delay value but I think it's not the cause of the issue, right?
So, could you check "Enable automatic flip" and tell me if it works? You can check also the confirm checkbox...
Please let me know.
CS
Armando
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While evaluating the cause of the flip button being disabled I found that DestinationSideOfPier method is involved in the flip button status.
And it could be also related to the CCDAP issue.
So let me know if enabling auto flip solves one of the issues or both of them (or nothing :( ).
CS
Armando
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Uff, I'm a bit discouraged, especially because these tests have to be done during the night, I've lost already one week, a lot of sleep, and now bad weather is coming and I don't know anymore what to try...
After taking that picture, I notice that autoflip was disabled, probably due to the driver update. Enabling it didn't activate the button (if I'm right, the autoflip acts only when a goto is issued).
After that, I tried to move to a close star, with autoflip enabled, and I got no request to flip (and button remained inactive too).
After that, I closed and opened again the driver, button became active, but when I issued the flip the telescope moved on the wrong side (that already happened once when I was trying during the day), crashed against the pier and made me lost a few years of life before I was able to stop it.
So I moved manually the telescope, synchronized with another star, then tried again and it was working (the flip button). There is definitively something that I'm missing in this behavior.
I've been installing the trial version of CCDAP 5 on another PC and I don't see any change in the configuration for the guide, so I suppose that it will behave in the same way. As soon as I have another clear night (may be saturday, may be next week...) I will try it. I've spent a lot of time searching on internet for other people who had similar problem but I found nothing. What I saw clearly yesterday night is that:
- during CCDAP initialization Maxim calibrates correctly
- if I try to guide after CCDAP initialization manually with Maxim, guide works fine
- when I start the automated procedure, guide ceases to work
- after that, to be able to guide again in maxim I have to recalibrate
So, since CCDAP is capable to change the guide directions in Maxim according to the orientation of the telescope, I understand that, for some reason, CCDAP thinks to be in a condition where the guide vector for DEC is reversed with respect to the calibration, and changes the Maxim configuration accordingly.
I tried also CCDSoft to check if it was a Maxim problem, but it does not support my AO, so it didn't even start.
It would be necessary to know what parameters CCDAP requires from ASCOM to do the calculations and then it would be a lot easier to check what it is happening... I'm beginning to think to make a switch to invert the connection of DEC in ST4 cable... :'(
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While evaluating the cause of the flip button being disabled I found that DestinationSideOfPier method is involved in the flip button status.
And it could be also related to the CCDAP issue.
So let me know if enabling auto flip solves one of the issues or both of them (or nothing :( ).
I was thinking... I did a lot of test during the day with the previous driver and the autoflip and it worked fine (not the final position, as I showed a few posts ago, but the request to flip was fine). If I decided not to flip, after the slew the flip button became active as expected.
What I didn't tried was to leave the telescope tracking until it reached the meridian and see if the button became active. If this afternoon is not raining, I can try it...
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Hi gpaolo,
I think 4 issues are involved:
1. reverse mode (reverse flip indicator in MaxIm); I think it's solved.
2. flip button not enabled during tracking; I hope the attached driver solves also this issue (with autoflip disabled too).
3. wrong flip direction or movement amount;
4. CCDAP guiding issues.
I think for the 4th issue you need to calibrate pointing on a star on the opposite side. I found something online related to this issue.
I need some time to figure out what is wrong by checking only the driver code (I'm not able to check by my mount).
If you can please let me know if the 2nd issue is solved.
CS
Armando
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Sure, I will try at the first chance, I hope this afternoon/tonight.
Could you please tell me where did you find reference to the position of the star used to calibrate CCDAP? Or at list how did you find it... I missed that information.
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Hi gpaolo,
Could you please tell me where did you find reference to the position of the star used to calibrate CCDAP? Or at list how did you find it... I missed that information.
http://www.ccdware.com/support/faq.cfm#10 - related t o CCCDAutoPilot 2
You can see similar issues in the following thread: http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5681439/Main/4995045
A confirmation about (frequent and deeply discussed on CCDAP support forum) issues caused by CCDAP itself: http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5498645/Main/5497888
Someone suggests also to keep MaxIm not connected to the telescope while using CCDAP. :-\
You could directly ask ccdware for support.
CS
Armando
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Hi Armando,
bad weather yesterday, clouds and rain, so I cannot test the new driver. Today it should be better, I hope to try it this afternoon.
About your suggestions:
http://www.ccdware.com/support/faq.cfm#10 - related t o CCCDAutoPilot 2
I already use a star on the east... In fact, I'm always starting on east side. I'm wondering what would happen if I start on west side, if CCDAP thinks to be on the wrong side during calibration instead of during guide, it could work...
You can see similar issues in the following thread: http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5681439/Main/4995045
Yes, I saw this thread. I'm using camera relays too because the Lodestar ST4 cable is not compatible with the ST4 port on the LFEP.
In fact, yesterday I cut the cable and installed a new connector with the correct connections and this afternoon I plat to build a box with two switches to revers "in hardware" RA and DEC guide direction... I have the habit from work to solve the issue of software guys with hardware ;D
Testing autoguider relays instead of camera relays is on my to-do list...
A confirmation about (frequent and deeply discussed on CCDAP support forum) issues caused by CCDAP itself: http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5498645/Main/5497888
Someone suggests also to keep MaxIm not connected to the telescope while using CCDAP. :-\
I had already tried all that. I also tried to force the pier flip in Maxim, connect it, disconnect it, everything. That's what I mean when I say that I'm out of ideas...
You could directly ask ccdware for support.
I tried, but... I'm using CCDAP4 from a friend of the association here in my city, but on the forum they told me that I'm evidently using a pirate version because CCDAP4 is no more available for testing and they didn't want to answer... so... no help from this side.
Anyway, I was thinking...
In the driver there is a Log window. Do you think it would be complicate to print in that windows what kind of informations the client applications are requesting? For example, something like "client name, method name, value"? In this way, we could know what parameters is requesting CCDAP during calibration and guide and we could directly check if the value returned is what is expected.
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Sorry guys we have so bad weather here I could not do anything here,... hope I can support next week.
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Hi gpaolo,
Yes, I saw this thread. I'm using camera relays too because the Lodestar ST4 cable is not compatible with the ST4 port on the LFEP.
In fact, yesterday I cut the cable and installed a new connector with the correct connections and this afternoon I plat to build a box with two switches to revers "in hardware" RA and DEC guide direction... I have the habit from work to solve the issue of software guys with hardware ;D
Testing autoguider relays instead of camera relays is on my to-do list...
if you want to find a remedy to the issue (instead of solving its root cause) and CCDAP allows executing scripts, I would suggest to make a vbs or js script to command the invert dec soon after the calibration... ;)
Anyway I think software of this kind are meant to simplify the life and the use of the equipment, not to introduce new and unexpected annoyances... :)
CS
Armando
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I can confirm the wrong status of the flip button was solved by my previously built and uploaded driver (LFEP I).
Anyway I think it should not take care also of the delay value used by the autoflip function.
So the attached driver definitely solves also this small bug: now, as soon as a flip is opportune, the flip button is enabled.
If you think reverse mode can be useful (it should replace pier side in reverse mode in MaxIm) I can update the driver on sourceforge.
I think incomplete flip should be examined. I'll gladly appreciate some reports about this issue: my mount is too slow (40x GoTo speed), I won't test any function related to flip for obvious reasons...
CS
Armando
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I can confirm the wrong status of the flip button was solved by my previously built and uploaded driver (LFEP I).
Anyway I think it should not take care also of the delay value used by the autoflip function.
So the attached driver definitely solves also this small bug: now, as soon as a flip is opportune, the flip button is enabled.
Great! Thanks! Is this version also implementing the reverse mode? I ask to know if I can use it to keep testing the CCDAP issue...
If you think reverse mode can be useful (it should replace pier side in reverse mode in MaxIm) I can update the driver on sourceforge.
Since it seems that different programs have different behavior, I think it could be useful to have the possibility to select the mode...
I think incomplete flip should be examined. I'll gladly appreciate some reports about this issue: my mount is too slow (40x GoTo speed), I won't test any function related to flip for obvious reasons...
Sure, as soon as I have decent weather I will try. Also today is has been overcast all the time... no way to test the driver, sorry. From tomorrow I should have a couple of clear nights...
if you want to find a remedy to the issue (instead of solving its root cause) and CCDAP allows executing scripts, I would suggest to make a vbs or js script to command the invert dec soon after the calibration... ;)
Anyway I think software of this kind are meant to simplify the life and the use of the equipment, not to introduce new and unexpected annoyances... :)
I know ;D
But I'm an hardware developer, I think "hardware" and I pass my entire day at work fighting with software guys (who pass the entire day fighting with hardware guys of course :D ) and... I think "hardware". Well, secondly, I don't have the slightest idea on how to write a script in visual basic or java... so... I had to use the solder, some wire and some imagination.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-nn9hJQSKykI/UjTEESIKMtI/AAAAAAAAKo8/6yxhCi2qO_E/s912/IMG_20130914_221322.jpg)
Mechanically is terrible and the aspect is not really artistic, but I had to use what I had at home (and of course I didn't have four connectors of the same kind).
So I made this little... thing, with two inputs (direct and inverted, since I saw that there are two version of the ST4 cable, one with connections from 1 to 5 and another from 6 to 2) and two output (again, direct and inverted). Through the selector I can have: X and Y, as they are; X and /Y (Y inverted), /X and /Y and /X and Y. That should cover all combinations...
In the worst case, I will initialize the mount with X-Y setup, and then switch to X-/Y for guiding. When the game becomes hard, the hard(ware) begins to play... ;D
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Hi gpaolo,
Great! Thanks! Is this version also implementing the reverse mode? I ask to know if I can use it to keep testing the CCDAP issue...
Yes, it is. You can enable reverse mode (by the added checkbox).
Even if it also solves the bug about the flip button (that occurred only whit autoflip disabled), keep autoflip enabled to test CCDAP.
Since it seems that different programs have different behavior, I think it could be useful to have the possibility to select the mode...
Ok. I'll give another look at the code just to evaluate the CCDAP issue. Then, in any case, I'll upload on Sourceforge the driver...
Sure, as soon as I have decent weather I will try. Also today is has been overcast all the time... no way to test the driver, sorry. From tomorrow I should have a couple of clear nights...
No hurry at all! ;) Simply I'm a little puzzled since I would have expected many reports about this issue (I created a thread to invite the users to contribute as bug reporters...).
At the same time I want to thank the_lizardking and you for your great contribute.
Well, secondly, I don't have the slightest idea on how to write a script in visual basic or java... so... I had to use the solder, some wire and some imagination.
Maybe a script (js extension) like this will work to set East as side of pier:
wshShell = WScript.CreateObject( "WScript.Shell" );
var sideE = new String("#<D#");
var sideW= new String("#>D#");
var T = new ActiveXObject("ASCOM.LFEP_Server.Telescope");
T.CommandBlind(sideE);
CS
Armando
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No hurry at all! ;) Simply I'm a little puzzled since I would have expected many reports about this issue (I created a thread to invite the users to contribute as bug reporters...).
I thought the same...
But I think that it depends maybe on the combination of conditions that leads to the problem.
In my case, I guess that there are not many people with the FLEP who are using CCDAP, and even less with the same cables I'm using if it turns out that the issue depends also on cable.
And probably most of the people never opened Maxim to check the pier flip status... who knows.
We are a small community and I fear that we will never grow, after the loss of the support from Rajiva. I had the chance to buy a 2nd hand controller from a friend, but I was (and I am) a bit worried to buy something that it is already dead from the hardware and firmware point of view. Luckily you are updating the ASCOM drivers, but if we encounter some firmware bug we are quite lost...
At the same time I want to thank the_lizardking and you for your great contribute.
No man, the great contribute is yours, we are just finding/creating problems... ;D
Maybe a script (js extension) like this will work to set East as side of pier:
wshShell = WScript.CreateObject( "WScript.Shell" );
var sideE = new String("#<D#");
var sideW= new String("#>D#");
var T = new ActiveXObject("ASCOM.LFEP_Server.Telescope");
T.CommandBlind(sideE);
That's nice, what language is it? Turkish? Arab? ;D
I'm joking... yes, I can (barely) understand the meaning, but beside not being able to write it by myself, I would not even know how to run it. Seriously, my programming experience at PC is stuck at VB3 something like 15-20 years ago, plus something in C during university. I REALLY have to study object oriented programming... ???
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Hi gpaolo,
I would not even know how to run it.
Save the file on the desktop and double click on it when required. ;)
If CCDAP allows the user to define a sequence of operations, including the execution of executable files, I think you can also make CCDAP executing it after the guider calibration...
CS
Armando
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Armando, when I turned the new driver on I've got a "Wrong DEC answer detected" in the log, and something more saying that the answer was E4, then 0, then nothing (sorry! those lines were deleted while I was trying to copy them!!).
What does it means?
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In the meanwhile, I can confirm that the flip button is working perfectly, in both directions: when pier flip can be performed, it is active. Good work! ;)
I've also made a couple of test on DEC movements during the flip and until now everything went fine, the final position is correct.
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Hi gpaolo,
I just realized that your guiding issues can be caused by wrong Guider Motor Control settings in Maxim (guide settings - advanced tab).
Maybe setting On Pier Flip Do Not Change or On Pier Flip Reverse Y you'll be able to solve the issue...
Unfortunately there is the need to know how the software works and what it expects from the controller to make the full system properly working...
CS
Armando
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Hi Armando,
no, it was not that, because CCD Autopilot automatically bypasses all those settings.
The problem was the physical connection on the ST4 cable, where X and Y were swapped. Normally, it doesn't have any effect, since the calibration is independent of "what is what", but since CCDAP sets the guiding vector depending on the rotation of the camera detected with the astrometric reduction of the image, it needs to have RA and DEC connected on the right pin.
For now, I've solved the issue by using... what was its name?... the ASCOM pulse guide or something like that, instead of ST4, and everything works perfectly.
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Hi gpaolo,
The problem was the physical connection on the ST4 cable, where X and Y were swapped.
Ok, but making use of the right cable should allow you to guide by ST-4. I'm not suggesting you to prefer ST-4; I'm simply stating that using the same guider settings ST-4 should work (by the right cable) properly.
To avoid cable modifications maybe playing with Maxim Guider Motor Control settings (and mainly On Pier Flip Reverse Y option) is enough...
Anyway if you found PulseGuiding working perfectly you have no reasons to add another "flying" cable... :)
CS
Armando
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Yes, it is in my plans to change the pinout of the cable, but as you say on cable less is a very good thing.
In any case, I prefer the good old hardware, I don't trust very much the reaction time of the software.
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Yes, it is in my plans to change the pinout of the cable, but as you say on cable less is a very good thing.
In any case, I prefer the good old hardware, I don't trust very much the reaction time of the software.
Timing is surely managed by LFEP itself if you use PulseGuide. If you switch back to ST-4 then keep in mind these possible limitations:
1. timing is managed by software in some cases (e.g. if you're using Shoestring GPUSB - pretty ridiculous);
2. resolution/accuracy of the MCU controlling the output lines if management is by hardware;
3. ability/inability to guide simultaneously on RA and Dec;
What is really a shame is that sometimes the software itself doesn't use the guider at its best (e.g. MaxIm DL doesn't guide simultaneously on RA and Dec by ASCOM even if the hardware and the driver are capable of supporting it...).
CS
Armando